Champions of raising the flag high for gloomy and doomy material, Swallow the Sun have never shied away from experimentation either. Exploring the darker, melancholic side of human emotions through varied sonic landscapes, each release sees the band move into some different directions while keeping a certain doomy base as their starting point. Shining is no different as their latest album, and we were able to sit down with songwriter/guitarist Juha Raivio to get his thoughts about some of the shifts in the band’s material with the new album, the challenges of playing this music live and being in that headspace, writing for yourself first, and more.
Dead Rhetoric: Looking through the press release, Matti [Honkonen] called Shining the ‘Black Album’ of doom. Do you feel it’s a fitting description?
Juha Raivio: He’s a very funny guy, that’s for sure. That’s a good way to put it, in a way. When you think about it, if you think about doom metal there’s a lot of doom in this band. Our first record label put the ‘doom’ label on us, because we were on a ‘doom’ record label. They promoted us as a doom metal band, which is fine, because there’s a lot of doom in this band. But it’s so much more than that.
In that way, saying it’s the ‘Black Album’ of doom – yeah. The new music is more compact, and the music has always been very melodic, but with the producer this time, he really went into the melodic part of the band. That was the most important thing – to pull the melodies out front and compact. So in that way, let’s say it is the Black Album of doom metal, so we can make many doom people super annoyed. No one liked the Black Album when it came out. It was too poppy at the time. Live and learn – good music is good music. It doesn’t matter what it is.
Dead Rhetoric: “Innocence Was Long Forgotten” had some remarks about how soft it was on YouTube. Was there a deliberate choice to use that song to showcase some of the shifts the band took with this album?
Raivio: Not really, but it felt…first of all it’s a super melodic song. It doesn’t matter what song you put first, people are going to say this or that. If we would have put on the darkest one first, people would argue that it’s going to be the same. People are very easy to start thinking about one song being a reflection of the whole album. It’s very strange to think when there is close to one hour of music. So to label the first album off of the first single, especially in our case, it’s the worst mistake you can make.
I read some comments for the first two days and then I kind of stopped. But what I saw right away was that people either loved it or hated it. That’s actually the best feedback you can get as a band. People feel the music. The worst thing is that nobody cares. The music needs to feel somewhere – be it hate or love. Both are good as long as you feel something.
Dead Rhetoric: You mentioned already that the sound of Shining wasn’t pre-planned. Knowing your back catalog and how you have taken some risks with your sound, like having a triple album, for instance. What served as your spark for continuing to be creative, when there’s a lot of other bands that have been around for as long as you have being content to release a new album that’s similar to the previous ones?
Raivio: The creative spark, if you could call it that, is what I have always talked about with this band, and it’s honesty in the music. I really can’t plan ahead of the music – what kind of music we should do or what the next album should sound like, or anything like that. The music just comes and it comes very fast when it comes. It writes itself out very quickly. What comes – I’m not the type of person who writes everyday. I don’t touch my guitar for months if I’m not on tour. I let the music build back up in my mind and when that force comes, it makes me take up the guitar and I know the album will come out. Then it’s about a month and the album is ready. The music really flows. When that happens, that spark is such a real, honest place. I have no memories, I’m almost in a trance when it happens. Then suddenly I’m like, “What the fuck? There’s the album and it’s ready!” So that’s the spark I need.
If I don’t have that, then I won’t release the music. If I just worked and thought on it, that’s the first time we will release a bad album – that’s my humble opinion. But I’m sure it would be a good album, but I wouldn’t be able to stand behind it if I had planned out what I was going to do. Especially if I was going to think about what people would want to hear. I think that’s unfortunate in that most of what bands are doing, they are thinking about dollars in their mind and what fans want to hear. Of course, you have to respect your fans, but not with the music in that way. You won’t be honest with yourself and that’s the most important thing. I can always be 100% behind the album and I can look myself in the mirror by being honest. Even if one person listens to it or one million. That’s my spark, it’s always been.
Dead Rhetoric: Like you were saying with the love it or hate it reactions, at least there’s a feeling there. If you just listen and think only about what the fans want, and just give that to them, they may treat it as, ‘yup, it’s there.’ Whereas if you stay true to yourself, you are saying that this is what you feel is going to come out.
Raivio: Exactly, and also you are getting stuck on that one thing – it’s very deadly for the band and the music. We have done acoustic albums, we have done a classical album, a funeral album, a death doom album. We have never been afraid to do anything. It goes back to that thing, where if it came out, you have to do it. In that way, I’m working with this huge producer with this new album. We are a death doom band and this underground band, and we have this Muse producer, who has also done Bring Me the Horizon. But I was super excited. That was the main thing. The management asked if there was a producer we would want to work with and so we looked into different people. I said that I wanted a producer who hasn’t done this kind of music ever before.
We wanted to push ourselves away from those comfort zones. It’s a safe and easy place and lay down and just do that thing, especially for the fans. I think that’s the worst thing you can do with your band and that music, to go into that trap. Many do, and many make a lot of money, and good for them. But how much can they look in the mirror? I don’t know, I don’t think anyone is going to say I wasn’t honest with this album. They both have their good and bad sides when you think of this type of music.
Dead Rhetoric: What made you decide to go with Dan Lancaster [the producer] then? Was there anything specific that made you say he should be the guy?
Raivio: Our management brought up his name. He was one of the names, and I looked him up. I love Muse, and he was more of a pop producer. He is also an amazing singer. He is singing a lot in this album. Harmonies, backing vocals, he colors up the album a lot. If you have been working with Muse and Bring Me the Horizon, he’s more of a pop producer to me, so he could pull that melodic side out for us even more. That’s what I really wanted from any producer. The most important thing was that it wasn’t some producer who has been doing Cannibal Corpse. Cannibal Corpse is an amazing band. But to have another producer that just does the same music, I wanted to get out of that comfort zone and safe place. He really did that. He’s an amazing guy and singer, Dan Lancaster.
Dead Rhetoric: What else do you feel defines Shining as your newest record?
Raivio: I think that power is, in a way, a good word. That’s why the album is even named Shining. The album name could have been Shining Dark. It’s a very dark album, lyrically. The music is more ‘uplifting,’ which isn’t the right word, but in a way, it’s uplifting with that power that sort of punches you. Even the sound of the album, if you compare to the Moonflower album, that I fucking hate, which I love about it because I hate it so much that I have to do that sort of an album. It’s not the music, I love the music. But how I feel about the album and how dark it was. If I would have gone deeper down with this new album, I don’t think things would have turned out very good. Personally, not musically.
Moonflowers was almost like lying in this [safe] space and I needed this new album to slap me in the fucking face and rip me out from that thing. That’s why it’s Shining also, the name in how it feels and everything. It’s a very dark and melancholic album, but there’s a certain type of power in the songs and I really needed someone to punch me in the face and that’s what happened with this album. That’s why I’m talking about it. I haven’t been doing interviews in forever.
Dead Rhetoric: I know! I was shocked when I saw it was you that signed on!
Raivio: I wanted it now, to come back a little bit and talk about the music. I didn’t want to for many years, due to personal reasons.
Dead Rhetoric: That being said, I know you put a lot of yourself into the writing. What are some of the challenges of that when, like you said with Moonflowers, you were out and touring and playing all of those songs. Does that take an emotional toll on you to keep revisiting those same things?
Raivio: Absolutely. That’s the hardest thing. You go back to the stage and you stab yourself in the heart with the songs. It’s a very schizophrenic feeling, because you love to play but at the same time, you hate it. I go back to everything in my mind, and I’m already there every day, in my mind. When the songs are written, you live them through the stage and the audience is crying and being very emotional. You feel those emotions. People are very compassionate and they are feeling their own sorrows and everything – they are living that through the music. It’s a lot. It’s beautiful in a way, but it’s super hard for your heart and your health to carry that onto the stage.
That was one big reason with Moonflowers that I didn’t know how I was going to do this again. So there was a little voice in me, maybe telling me that if there was going to be any more new music, maybe I could have a little mercy on myself, music-wise. It was the first time in my life, there was this voice, but I didn’t start to write anything like that. I remember that voice, and it took a long, long time before the music came. But it was there, and when the music came out it was like a guardian angel in a way, how the spark came with this album. I’m happy about that. It’s not a very happy album, but there’s a shining power.
Dead Rhetoric: It’s almost sort of ethereal, that’s the first word that came to my mind when listening to the album.
Raivio: I’m happy to hear that. It’s a very punchy album, but it has that depth and the feeling. The producer didn’t touch on the music. It’s 95% the way it was when I first wrote it. So it wasn’t like he started to write the songs with us. It was everything else that brought us to this point.
Dead Rhetoric: Knowing the way that a Swallow the Sun album goes, how important is album flow for you? You aren’t exactly writing singles and radio hits. Is it important that there is almost a journey through an album?
Raivio: It is important. It always takes a bit of time to get the song order right and have that red line running through the album. It’s built up so it has those highs and lows. In that way, if you were to play straight death metal, it would be easier because everything goes the same way. But there’s so much in terms of ups and downs, so you have to think about that. I think the album ends on the song, “Shining” and the order feels totally right.
Dead Rhetoric: What’s planned for Swallow the Sun for the rest of this year and into 2025? I know you have a massive US tour next spring.
Raivio: We are going to do the Finnish gigs in a few weeks. Then we will do the 70K Tons of Metal and we are going to do it with the ballet. So there you go again, we don’t play it safe in that way. After that it’s the North American tour and a European tour. So it’s going to be very busy at the end of the year into next year and to the springtime. Then we will have summer festivals of course.
Dead Rhetoric: The ballet, that seems like kind of a big feat for 70K, I know you have done it in Finland before but I imagine it’s a bit easier to figure out there.
Raivio: Yeah, it’s a big production. We played in this super old theater, which was amazing. We were very happy about it. It’s quite a thing to go into the Caribbean and bring this Finnish forest, winter, and a ballet under the stars! But I love that sort of contrast. It’s going to be amazing, the whole ballet and everything.